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Return to Gaming and Art, part 1

Here I am, in the middle of editing and laying out Coin Opera 2, an anthology of poems about computer games that was originally supposed to come out last year, a book that may be ignored by poetry readers (“Computer games? Please”) and by gamers (“Poetry? Please”) alike. As you might expect, I’ve been thinking a lot about what games are, what poetry is, what art is, what they all have to do with each other, and particular on that vexatious topic: can games be art?


I. Don’t focus so much on thematic messages!

I’ve been spurred on in my thinking by this recent article, posted by Film Crit Hulk, which is a worthwhile read and makes some important points but ultimately comes to, I think, the wrong conclusion. While Hulk has a strong argument about the social responsibility of art (and, more importantly, how most games developers have yet to face up to that responsibility, to put it mildly) his narrow definition ultimately leads him to conclude that games “don’t even belong in the same conversation as movies” and that art in computer games is only a “grand possibility”.

When I say his definition of art is narrow, I refer to this part of the article:

“HULK DEFINES ART AS SOMETHING WHERE THE THEMATIC MESSAGES (EVEN IF THOSE MESSAGES ARE AMBIVALENT) ARE THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE PRODUCTS INCEPTION AND IDENTITY.”

This leads him down the route of (rightly) critiquing the risible Call of Duty series for its thematic immaturity and moral cowardice.

But that is just not an adequate definition of art. People do not parade around the world’s most lavish galleries looking at pieces whose thematic messages are the single most important aspect of their inception and identity.

Hulk is closer, I think, than the author of this article, who brushes this issue aside and argues that artistic achievement is synonymous with technical achievement in a given field, ie. good games are always good art. That strikes me as even further away from the mark.

So too do cruder attempts along the lines of: art is what makes you look at something a different way; art makes you consider the world and your place in it; art is something that is remembered beyond its author’s lifetime. All no good, I’m afraid.

I’m not myself going to attempt a ‘definition’ of art right now. It is the slipperiest of concepts, and we should be thankful for that; otherwise, we’d all be necking government-regulated ‘art’ pills. What I will say, though, is that any definition should recognise that when we appreciate something as art, we are often enjoying and admiring its mere existence, disconnected from its original purpose (if any ever existed). Think of Wilde’s all art is quite useless or Auden’s “poetry makes nothing happen”. We are moved by the medium as well as – perhaps more than – the message.

It’s one thing for Hulk to say art should be socially responsible. There I think I agree. It’s quite another to say that something can’t be art at all if it isn’t socially responsible.

Think of the gallery example again. The purpose of many renowned paintings was to portray the artist’s patrons in a favourable light. When we admire such a painting, we are not concerned that the subject now looks like an overdressed buffoon, or that his death has rendered the art pointless. When we look at Lely’s Portrait of a young lady and child, we don’t shake our heads sadly because a naked Nell Gwynn no longer stirs the loins as it once might have.


No – the work is still admired for its form, for the abilities of the artist working within their medium, for its peculiarity or overall coherence.

I’m going to move on from paintings now because I know very little about them. One related point: much poetry, of course, resists disclosing its practical purpose (if it has one), principally because of the distraction it causes. An overtly political poem is more likely to be noticed/admired/derided for its politics than for its form, for example – whereupon it might as well be a blog post and not a poem at all.


II. You’re looking in the wrong direction

One of things that keeps me coming back to the art/games debate is the persistent belief in what Hulk calls ‘the grand possibility’. Gamers and games critics insist on looking to the future for games to cross the line into art, when they should be looking to the past.

Why? Because what we call ‘retro’ games – games that are antiquated and no longer popularly played – are now, from a modern gamer’s perspective, more appreciable as artifacts than they are as games. As games, their mechanics have been improved upon to the point where many seem crude, frustrating and overly repetitive. What is left is the enjoyment and admiration we might still feel for creativity and technical accomplishments within the confines of a difficult medium.

Anyone who reads the UK magazine Retro Gamer will know that they frequently fill double-page spreads with single screenshots of games from the 70s, 80s and early 90s, purely because they are beautiful to look at – or certainly, at least, the reader takes pleasure in merely looking. Similarly so the countless youtube videos of retro games.





In the same respect, ‘pixel art’ is now an acknowledged subgenre of illustration. What once was a practical solution to severe technical restrictions is now, in an age of CGI polygons and lavish pixel depth, imitated and expanded for its aesthetic quality.


Why does it matter then if we no longer admire old games for their original intended purpose? In one sense, they have transcended the short-term limitations of that purpose.



III. So have modern games lost it?

There are a few odd holy grails in modern gaming which serve to obscure any attempt to assess the artistic merits of a particular game. For one thing, there is the obsession with perfecting the ‘movie-where-YOU-are-the-star’ genre, with its increasing graphical fidelity to real life. These games, as Hulk points out, more often than not want to be as much like action films as possible, and it’s difficult to know what on earth to assess them against except each other, so confused are their identities. Are they a means of acting out a fantasy? Interactive movies? Virtual playgrounds?

Then there’s the enthralment to ‘open-ended’ gaming, where the player is not forced down any particular path and can make decisions that permanently affect the in-game storyline beyond a simple win/lose dichotomy. The latest flag-carrier in this regard is The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, a game which seems to have temporarily deactivated many people’s ability to think critically at all. I have seen none of what is noted below, for example, mentioned in a professional review:


Interestingly, though, what I’m seeing with Skyrim (I think) is a generation bypassing the flaws in the game aspect because they’re too busy admiring it as a piece of art. The first thing many reviewers remark on, for instance, is the vastness of the in-game world. This reminds me of the reaction you might expect from someone seeing a huge painted canvas for the first time – something like The Night Watch or Stanley Spencer’s The Resurrection:


There are appreciative mentions of the story’s length and depth, but not a single actual character named (that I have come across), which suggests, again, admiration without engagement. A good potboiler or thriller delivers the story through a medium that is largely invisible, while what we vaguely term ‘literature’ forces us to notice and appreciate the means of delivery. Skyrim‘s story and characters are apparently largely forgettable, but people seem to be endlessly impressed with the delivery system.

That’s not to say, even if it is art, it’s great or long-lasting art. It could be a flash in the pan, particularly if everything admirable about the game is something that can be done better by larger teams of developers in the future, with even more money and technology at their disposal. And however much there is to admire about a game, it seems to me a problematic sign that something so fundamental to the role-playing genre – the narrative – should apparently be unremarkable.

The anecdotes I have come across regarding people’s experiences playing Skyrim repeatedly emphasise the pleasure of the journey – wandering across tracts of aesthetically pleasing virtual landscape. Or else they emphasise the freedom: kill who you want, rob who you want, collect books, ignore missions, lolligag. None of this, to my mind, sounds like the makings of a great game. Bernard Suits’ definition of playing a game is “the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles”.  But if the emphasis is on freedom, that connotes a lack of obstacles. So it sounds like the pleasure comes from somewhere else. It sounds sometimes like people are talking about specifically enjoying not playing the game.

Some would argue the primary purpose of computer games is pleasure through interaction, and therefore that a game that delights the player has succeeded as a game, even if it doesn’t conform to the expected conventions of a game. After all, there is Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball:


But there must be a line in the sand (and DoA:BV surely approaches it), where the pleasure derived from interaction cannot really be called ‘gaming’ or ‘playing a game’, just as there is a point where admiration of an image is no longer artistic appreciation.

I’m not too worried about where that line in the sand is. All I note is that there is at least the possibility that games are already being approached and experienced as art, perhaps in some cases more than they are as games.

In part 2 of this, I’m going to go on to talk about Facade, ‘masterpieces’ and why Portal 2 is an unsurpassable example of a game that is also an artistic achievement.

Tomorrow’s Strike

For the avoidance of doubt, Sidekick fully supports the strike by UK public sector workers on Wednesday 30th November and rejects any notion that it is ‘irresponsible’ or organised by ‘hardliners’ (thanks, Tories!)

I’d like to post at length about this issue but unfortunately don’t have time right now. Needless to say, we would strike too if Dr F hadn’t dissolved our Union. Literally. With some kind of acid.

Leveson Inquiry 28-11-11

Since I’m covering the Leveson Inquiry for the time being, I’ve decided to appoint myself its unofficial poet-in-residence. The Inquiry is not confidential (or at least I don’t think I’ve seen or been witness to anything confidential), so don’t expect any sensational gossip, but I did want to write some pieces in response to the picture that is unfolding.

Also, since I decided this rather late in the day, I will have to backtrack for some of the days I’m missed. I will try to write something for every Monday and Tuesday I have personally covered. Here is today’s:

28.11.11
Books
“You were described as ‘posh, loved culture and poetry’. You probably do still love culture and poetry. ‘Lewd’, ‘made sexual remarks’ and ‘creepy’. Then you are described — you were branded ‘a creepy oddball’ by ex-pupils.”
Mr Jay, questioning Christopher Jefferies

We should have worked it out from all his books.
What normal, law-abiding sort would ever
be caught nose-down, engrossed, on tenterhooks,
in any kind of literary endeavour?
Imagine all the filth and clever-clever
scurrilousness sealed in each plush brick.
We don’t go near them – but we get the flavour
from titles like King Leer and Moby Dick.

The Camden Art Redemption Miracle

Kirsty and I are supporting award-winning poet Tim Turnbull at the launch of his new limited edition book, The Camden Art Redemption Miracle (Donut Press). Sidekick favourite Wayne Holloway-Smith will also be doing a shift, and Tim himself will be giving us a special half-hour performance in his trademark Yorkshire brogue.

The launch is tonight at regular poetry hang-out pub The Betsey Trotwood (56 Farringdon Road, EC1R 3BL, nearest tube: Farringdon) from 7.00pm.


Making the new site (part 1)

OK, so this is the first blog post on a new version of the Sidekick Books/Dr Fulminare site. Most of the posts here will be mirrors of what we post over on the Fuselit blog, which will itself be integrated more fully in the Fuselit site. What we’ll end up with, hopefully soon, is two complete websites united by similar (but not identical) blog content and shared Twitter/Facebook accounts.

For newcomers, Fuselit is the hand-bound-and-built literary magazine Kirsty and I produce, while Sidekick Books is our small press. Doing both has caused us some ‘brand confusion’ in the past, with our anthologies being occasionally attributed to ‘Fuselit Press’ and some people thinking we bind our own books. It doesn’t help that Sidekick Books grew out of the bonus booklets we used to make to accompany each Fuselit issue. Hopefully, by early next year we’ll have sorted it out so that everything is clear and obvious to the casual internet user without our having to resort to double lives.

Anyway, I’d been making notes on improving on the old Dr F site for so long that it got to the point where it was easier to start afresh. With buoyant idiocy, I predicted it would take me one weekend, with possibly a few evenings afterward for trouble-shooting.

Ha.

It’s been, I think, a couple of months of on/off work to get this far (on/off because there are a million other things we’re supposed to be doing). During that time, I ran through a few different designs, spent an inordinate amount of time with my head in my hands and changed the art style significantly. This was one of the first banner images I drew up:


I’ve never been very comfortable with my role as house artist/illustrator for our projects but seeing as any other solution would involve either money or some poor art school graduate being cruelly demoralised by my constantly demanding changes and redrafting, it’s me we’re stuck with.

I’ll say a little more about the process in future posts. This is really just a space filler!

Interview: Mike West

Mike West has donned many guises over the years – bingo caller at the poetry-hybrid night Bingo Master’s Breakout, underboss of well-versed satirical night Celebrity Euthanasia, false biographer of hangman Jack Ketch for Fuselit: Jack‘s ‘Hijacks’ booklet and human jukebox of intriguing fact and fiction. Having enjoyed countless whimsical conversations with him in the past, we decided to make it official with an interview…

Tell us a bit about what you get up to in poetry and beyond.

Indeed. I started my first blast of poetry performing in the later years of the previous century (I love saying that!). I dropped out several years ago worried I’d become too vapid, but never stopped going to gigs. Then last year the Vintage Poison collective plucked me to co-host one of their nights along with Kevin Reinhardt, and I broke my vow of performance abstinence to take on the best job in poetry: bingo caller at Bingo Master’s Breakout.

I’d been spending my wilderness years developing my old comic techniques for more biting subject matter, and writing a kind of verse that doesn’t mesh very well with most gigs, or most mags, because it is too long and too old-fashioned (it even rhymes, for Heaven’s sake). Fortunately I am not at all interested in publication. Anybody who’s been in Foyles, seen the number of books they’ve got, and concluded that the world needs a few more of those things is a special kind of mad.

One of my ongoing unpoetic projects is www.historyxls.com, where I (and anybody else who fancies it) will be cataloguing the history of the world in the form of a spreadsheet. It would be fair to say that there is still quite a lot of work to do on that.

Who or what influences you in your own work?

I am interested in getting verse to do things that it used to do very well but is rarely called upon to do these days. Before the Aeneid, Virgil wrote the Georgics, which is a handbook for farmers written in the same epic style. It contains possibly the hardest-to-translate bit of classical Latin verse we’ve got: a description of how to assemble the parts of a plough. Its content is on a par with instructions for a flat-pack wardrobe, but it scans and jingles in the mouth beautifully. You can almost hear the bits twisting and clicking into place. I have recently had great fun writing heroic couplets to describe the loading action of the Ross Mark II rifle.

I have been trying to write a little more like Philip Larkin. He’s the only poet I know who can explain emotions and abstractions in precise terms, without having to stop and steady himself on a metaphor like I just did. A more realistic target for me, though a distant one, is the 12th-century “Archpoet”, who wrote Goliardic poetry: cheeky medieval Latin verse about hard-drinking students and wayward monks, frequently in the meter of “Yankee Doodle went to town riding on a pony”. His work features in the libretto to Carl Orff’s Carmina Burana, and if he had known his words would live on to accompany a surfer in a famous deodorant advert he would have been well chuffed.

What makes for a good or bad gig?

Blimey, I wish I knew that. I am constantly surprised in both directions. But over my years of poetry gig attendance, I have found that the quality of poetry is directly proportional to the size of the wooden beads worn by ladies in the audience. Roddy Lumsden’s themed readings in the Betsey Trotwood always have some good stuff, and the beads come in around 15mm in diameter for those. I’ve seen TS Eliot prizewinners pulling in over 40mm.

What’s the strangest experience you’ve had as a performer or host?

The Celebrity Euthanasia series went a bit Apocalypse Now towards the end. There was that night when the stage lights blew up so we sat round a wicker lamp reading Geoffrey Hill’s “Mercian Hymns”. Another night I had a nasty head cold: I’d just mumbled to a plausible stopping point in my opening spiel, inwardly thanking Superdrug and the mic stand that I hadn’t collapsed, and brought on the first act when a black-clad man glided into the single-figure audience. It was not Death, but Pete Doherty. Obviously I’d read about him in Metro, and was thinking if he started causing trouble I was in no fit state to handle it. But he was good as gold, cheered all the floor spots, and it shaped into a fun little show. He can come again. Camden School of Enlightenment – what’s happening, when and what have we got to look forward to?

Ooh yes! It will be a chance for performers to explore themes more ambitiously than the spoken word circuit normally allows. The Enlightenment part is that we should all end up knowing a bit more about something, or seeing something in a different way, through comedy, poetry, music or suchlike. All the featured acts will pick a specialist subject, and we’ll have some “resident lecturers” who get to expand their theme over three shows. The part I’m most looking forward to is the Dead Poet Society spot, where a performer will dedicate a set to one of our favourite poets of the past. We’re starting with Hovis Presley, and Ivor Cutler’s coming up in November. We will be at the Camden Head, 100 Camden High Street, on the second Tuesday of odd-numbered months, starting September 14th. More info at www.csofe.co.uk.

Your tweets have quite possibly converted me to Twitter – what do you enjoy about it, who do you currently follow and if you could follow a fantasy Twitter thread, who would it belong to?

It’s my one concession to social networking. You get to select your own virtual 24-hour tea-party of people sharing their musings, and send them away if they get boring. I am enjoying Viz Top Tips, Robert Auton, a couple of people who write tiny mystery stories, and somebody who pretends to be Alexander Pope and comments on the news in Augustan couplets. Pope, Swift, Gay and the rest of their Scriblerus Club would have been the kings of Twitter. As would Jesus ben Sirach, whose pungent moral furballs narrowly failed to make the cut for the Bible (still, that must have been a rejection letter worth keeping).

Your karaoke turns are somewhat legendary (“Ebeneezer Goode” being a particular highlight). What songs would you like to do, but haven’t yet, and how would you make them your own?

The “Bingo Master’s Breakout” karaoke selection books are still awfully light on grimecore; and the Rambling Syd Rumpo songs of Kenneth Williams are surely ripe for the Dropkick Murphys treatment. One that’s on the list is “You Were Made For Me” by Freddie and the Dreamers, but the dance that goes with that song involves bending the knees at alarming angles and I can’t quite do it. I think Freddie could only do it because his childhood diet in 1930s Manchester would have been dangerously deficient in calcium.

What makes you facepalm?

The English comic haiku, where the writer has had a thought that isn’t significant enough to make a proper poem, and isn’t funny enough to stand up as a joke, so it’s been mangled into that 17-syllable Procrustean bed to guarantee some polite applause. The proper Japanese-style haiku is a thing of skyey marvel, but the English comic haiku is just the sickly cousin of the noble limerick.

Do you have any secret London-based places/events of wonder to share?

Up in Camden, the Pie and Mash shop on Royal College Street does a consistent job of serving delicious pies with existential despair, and then there’s the Phoenician supermarket in Kentish Town. Back in my “manor” of Fitzrovia, you simply must pop into All Saints’ Margaret Street, a multicoloured towering pre-Raphaelite universe wedged into no space at all. John Betjeman was a huge fan, and on Sundays they do a high-as-a-kite Anglican evensong that will better your appreciation of late T.S. Eliot no end. Then wend your way to Bourne and Hollingsworth, where cocktails are served in teacups with cucumber sandwiches. It’s done up like a 1950s parlour, feels like walking into the raucous end of a naughty duchess’s funeral wake, and gets extra points for being underneath the tobacconist’s in “Peeping Tom”. (I am writing this from the edge of a private croquet lawn off Regent’s Park but that is a whole other story.)

Who or what should we be watching?

I am confidently expecting good things to continue coming out of Jack Underwood, who is meticulously and thrillingly slapdash, and James Brookes, who has fully charged his poetry bowl at history’s all-you-can-eat salad bar without spilling any of it carelessly on the lino. And I am keeping half an eye on Sophie McGrath, who doesn’t put herself about very much but has produced one outstanding poem called “Lebanon”. My favourite live act right now is David J aka The Vocal Pugilist: apparently he’s been at it for donkey’s years but he was a new discovery for me this summer, courtesy of Rrrants. On top of playing with some genuinely fresh ideas, he can do such unbelievable things with his voice that in less enlightened times we would have had to burn him at the stake.

Do you have any Boltonian pearls of wisdom or suggestions for would-be comperes and performers?

Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. For a poet, until you’ve gained such a standing that people will hang on your every word, ideally this means knowing your material off by heart so you can devote your eyes and brain to your audience, but I accept not everybody has time to do that. Also think carefully about whether, and how, you need to preamble your poems. If you’ve told me in advance at what stage in your relationship you wrote that ex-boyfriend poem, I’ll be suppressing yawns. If you leave me to speculate, I might end up suppressing little whimpers of fascination. Comperes have it easy: when you’re dying on your arse you can just bring the next act on. But again, it’s preparation. Having my links sorted out in advance usually gives me the confidence to make up better ones on the spot. Eh, our kid?

***

For Enlightenment alerts, visit the CSofE site, and don’t forget to follow Mike’s bite-size wit and wisdom via Twitter at @camdenlight.

Photo by Ant Smith.

Interview: Helena Nelson

Helena Nelson is one of the hardest workers in poetry: head honcho of pamphlet publishers Happenstance Press, editor of pamphlet review Sphinx, a published poet in her own right and a general poetry gladiator, promoting, realising, supporting and producing work all over the place. We snagged her sleeve for a few questions.

How did HappenStance begin and did you have a mission statement in mind when you began?

That’s two questions. I can’t reply briefly enough to the first for you to include on a website, but it was a dream, literally. As for the second, I loathe mission statements. I don’t even have one now. At least, I don’t think I do. I haven’t got a vision statement either.

What really excites you in a piece and what makes you sigh and reach for a comforting biscuit?

What really excites me is something I’m not expecting but immediately recognise. And talent. And intelligence. I don’t find biscuits comforting …

Are there any underrated or little-known poets whose work you champion or simply recommend taking a look at?

I think that applies to everyone I publish. If they were appropriately rated, I doubt I would be publishing their pamphlets at all (Alison Brackenbury is the most popular poet for whom I’ve done a publication, and that was a rare opportunity). I’d like to think I was doing my best to champion them all, though my own ability as a Wonderhorse is open to question.

What is good poetry able to achieve that other media can’t? Is there any area in which poetry has yet to be surpassed as a method of communication?

Poetry has yet to be surpassed as a method of communication. When it works, it works like nothing else. As a method of communication.

Tell us about the style of reviewing that you use, and what does and doesn’t work. 

I like accessible reviewing – someone who has read the text closely and carefully, has a lively style and takes responsibility for a personal opinion, rather than someone who asserts an absolute ‘truth’, e.g. “this poem is crap.”

Obviously a beautiful cover can’t save a terrible collection, but how important do you personally find the aesthetics of poetry books/pamphlets in complementing the contents?

Hugely important. I don’t think the message IS the medium, but I do think the medium can and should be part of the message. I am constantly dissatisfied with what I do, but then that’s good because it means I keep trying.

How do you find the live poetry scene where you are and what is your favourite type of live poetry event?

It’s wonderful. I live 22 miles south of St Andrews, which hosts StAnza, Scotland’s international poetry festival. I’m within travelling distance of Glasgow, which also does all sorts of interesting things, the Aye Write among them. I jump on a train or drive into Edinburgh to go to Shore Poets, events at the Scottish Poetry Library, the Poetry Association of Scotland, the Edinburgh Book Festival and the Callum Macdonald award presentations, as well as the excellent readings organised by Rob A Mackenzie. Among others. Having said this, I am often too exhausted or busy to get to the things I really want to go to.

Oh – my favourite type of live poetry event? Hell’s bells, I don’t know. I like all sorts of things. I like old-and-formal-but-means-business, hit and miss, young and brash, flip and flop, cuts-a-dash. Anything that’s well-prepared and a bit different. I don’t like stodgy, up its own arse or didn’t-really-have-time-to-prepare-this-but-how-lucky-you-are-to-have-the-privilege-of-hearing-me.

What was the initial idea behind your ‘Unsuitable Poems’?

Fun. Timid attempt at rebellion. Also I don’t have a plan, as such. My own poems either arrive or don’t. They have a mind of their own.

What’s going to be happening in the foreseeable future with your own work, Happenstance and Sphinx?

That’s three questions.

Own work – just did another Unsuitables which may or may not be inferior to the first. Should have a Suitable collection within next 18 months, not published by me. And about time!

Sphinx – issue 12 is the final paper issue, due early 2010. New review facility on the web will continue and hopefully go from strength to strength. I plan to post features and interviews there too, in due course.

HappenStance, at present, will continue with poetry pamphlets, especially first collections. I will continue to work with poets – lots of interaction. Probably about 10 to 12 each year: already full for 2010 and probably also 2011. Increasingly working with people over the long-term, rather than publishing instantly ‘finished’ collections. I’ve started two new series – one will be poetry sequences – for poems that formally fit together as a set or only make sense as a group. Another will be PoLites – light verse. (It is hard to get good light verse and also surprisingly hard to shift it so there won’t be a lot of them.) I’m also doing PoemCards – I like those and plan to continue them.

Finally, what one element, given absolute power, would you remove from poetry altogether?

Money …

***

Helena’s pamphlets Unsuitable Poems and The Unread Squirrel: More Unsuitable Poems are out now. For more Nelson goodness, investigate her blog and stop by Happenstance Press.

Interview: Ken Edwards

Ken Edwards is the editor and publisher behind the feisty and long-running small press Reality Street, as well as a multi-published poet in his own right. Fellow Hastings resident Richard Evans met him for a chat.






Reality Street has been publishing linguistically innovative writing for almost twenty years. How have you seen the poetic landscape change in that time?

In 1993, when the press as presently constituted started publishing, we were at the tail-end of an explosion in innovative poetry in Britain that happened in the late 60s-70s-80s, but which had gone unnoticed or been deliberately ignored by the wider literary public (Morrison and Motion’s infamous comment in the introduction to The Penguin Book of Contemporary British Poetry, 1982, that “very little – in England at any rate – seemed to be happening” in the 60s and 70s). The British Poetry Revival, as some called it, was also overshadowed by such developments as Language Poetry in the USA, which by 1993 had already reached its peak. It seemed then that few younger poets were coming forward to carry on what I called the ‘parallel tradition’ of innovative writing. Today, however, the landscape, as you call it, has changed dramatically. While innovative poetry still struggles to reach mainstream attention, there seems to have been a second explosion of younger poets whose view of the possibilities of poetry have been shaped by my generation. And there is some grudging acceptance in parts of the mainstream that the dominant conservative modes of poetry are not all that there is or could be.

What would you say are the major contributing factors to the recent resurgence in more experimental writing?

I don’t know. Some point to the increase in creative writing courses and to the growing influence of my generation of innovative poets as teachers within academic departments. But having experienced some live events in Brighton and London recently where there was a preponderance of younger people in the audience, I’m not sure this is the whole story. The atmosphere in a reading I participated in last year in Brighton was somewhat akin to what I’d expect at a slam or performance poetry event – except that the poetry on offer was more complex, more ‘out’ – the kind of stuff that seems to baffle or enrage the panjandrums of the mainstream literary press. I think maybe a generation has grown up accepting as normal experimentation in visual art, music and film, and has extended that expectation to writing.

There have been times when the kind of work you publish was deemed deeply unfashionable by the literary establishment. Did you ever become despondent about that state of affairs?

I have been despondent many times, and despite my earlier remarks, I continue to be disappointed when people don’t ‘get it’ or when clearly wonderful writing gets rejected or ignored because it doesn’t fit market conditions. But my response has always been the old punk attitude of ‘do it yourself’. Eventually, breakthroughs will occur.

Were you surprised when Rae Armantrout, whose innovative work you published in the anthology Out of Everywhere, was awarded the Pulitzer Prize this year?

I was astonished and delighted. When I got an email about this, I first thought it was a spoof. But I’m delighted because not only is Rae a wonderful poet, she’s such a nice person too. If we’re being honest, why she was picked out has something to do with the fact that the book that won the prize dealt with the theme of her own cancer diagnosis and her mortality. That always plays well as a story, if we can be cynical for a moment. But if I’m being more optimistic, I like to think that it’s also part of an increasing acceptance of non-normative poetry in the USA, as evidenced by other poets Reality Street has been associated with such as Fanny Howe winning major awards, and Charles Bernstein, the co-founder of L=A-N=G=U=A=G=E magazine, being published by a major press (Farrar, Straus & Giroux). Social trends in the UK lag a few years behind America, so expect Tom Raworth to get the T S Eliot prize within the decade!

There are many who cite J.H. Prynne’s work as the essential source of contemporary avant-garde poetry in Britain. Do you think that is a fair account of how things developed?

Part of this grudging acceptance of the existence of non-normative poetry that I mentioned earlier has been cast in the form of a narrative that goes: there is ‘Poetry’ with a capital P, and then there is ‘experimental poetry’ also known as ‘Cambridge poetry’, which is horrible but liked by a small number of university-educated young men, and the leader of this trend is the Cambridge don (usually described as ‘reclusive’) J H Prynne. This is a hilarious distortion of what is going on. Yes, I think Prynne is a major poet who has had a huge influence on many people’s poetics, my own included, but the avant-garde scene is much more complex and wide-ranging than that. You can trace current developments back to the ferment in London in the early 70s, with such influential figures as Eric Mottram, who taught me at King’s College London, the sound poet and publisher Bob Cobbing, and Allen Fisher, who was involved with the Fluxus art movement. Then there was the Cambridge scene, which included Andrew Crozier, Peter Riley, John James, Wendy Mulford and others as well as Prynne. And poets and poet-publishers elsewhere in the UK, often influenced by the US Black Mountain, New York and West Coast scenes: Tom Raworth, Lee Harwood, and the great Roy Fisher who has reached his eightieth year I believe.

If someone is curious about linguistically innovative poetry, but doesn’t know where to start, what would you recommend?

Well, of course I would recommend the Reality Street website! But if you want a really thorough introduction to British linguistically innovative poetry, I’d suggest looking at http://www.modernpoetry.org.uk and follow up leads from there.

Of course, as well as publishing, you also write. Your recent prose work, Nostalgia for Unknown Cities, uses imaginative ways of producing narrative. Could you tell us a bit more about this?

I founded Reality Street, and its predecessor, Reality Studios magazine, out of frustration that the kind of writing I was trying to do had few outlets. I wanted to establish a community of writers and readers and that is still the aim. I started out as a prose writer, quite successful in placing short stories during the 1970s in such magazines as Transatlantic Review and Bananas, edited by Emma Tennant, as well as the Arts Council anthology New Stories. My stories were influenced by Kafka, Borges, Beckett and science-fiction. They were speculative and experimental. But I couldn’t take it any further. An editor at Chatto & Windus asked to see a novel but I realised I couldn’t or wouldn’t produce what he was after. Which turned out to be the likes of Martin Amis and Ian McEwan, both a couple of years older than me. At the time I thought what the avant-garde poets were producing was far more interesting than most prose fiction being done, so I joined their ranks instead. Goodbye to a literary career! Now, interestingly, I have almost ceased to write verse and have reverted to narrative prose, experimenting with forms and modes: dialogues, dramatic monologues, mock-documentary, formalistic experiments with sentences. My continuing need to establish a context for my own writing has led me to start the Reality Street Narrative Series, which is dedicated to experimental fiction. It’s all quite selfish, really!

Denise Riley, one of the most well known of the writers you publish, has often written about the difficulty of truthfully putting the self into words. Would you say you work under the weight of such ‘unrealised ethics of authorship’? And if so, where do they end and where do they begin?

There has always been controversy in the kind of poetry I’m involved with about using the ‘I’. Denise’s poetry is the most sophisticated treatment of the self in writing that I know. Well, I have experimented with poetry in which the personal pronouns are eliminated, but my preference is for active play with them. A lot of my writing has to do with notions of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ and the illusory nature of the relationship between the two. In one of my most recent works, ‘Bardo’, parts of which have been published, for instance in my pamphlet Red & Green (Oystercatcher Press), there are three characters, named as the first person, the second person and the third person, who constantly change places. This is also a running gag on the Trinity, perhaps a relic of my own long lapsed Catholicism.

Finally, it is little less than a decade until we will have a new Poet Laureate, perhaps enough time for Britain to catch up with the fresh wave in experimentation occuring in American literature. Who would be your ideal candidate to bring about a sparky new era in British poetry?

Good heavens, what a question! I saw an interview with Allen Fisher recently in which he was posed the same question, and pointed out that it depends on how you regard that absurd institution. To his credit, whatever you may think of his own poetry, Andrew Motion tried to develop it into a kind of ambassadorship for poetry, and if that’s the role, then Allen Fisher suggested the late Douglas Oliver, an avant-garde poet who actively tried to reach out to a common culture, might have fitted the bill. Alas, Doug is no longer with us. My suggestion would be someone who already has the common touch but is also open to every kind of poetry there is. Ian McMillan, who appears regularly on the BBC, is known primarily for his comic verse, but I know he is very open-minded about poetry, and indeed has been an active supporter of Reality Street right from the start. Ian would have my vote!

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Richard Evans is the author of two collections of poetry, The Zoo Keeper, which was released when he was 21 and highly commended in The Forward Prizes, and his latest release, Orbiting. His website is http://www.richardevanspoetry.co.uk.

Interview: Claire Trévien

Claire Trévien is the ringmaster of online poetry reviews bible Sabotage, as well as a bilingual creative whirlwind in her own right. We hollered our questions across the rumpled swathes of the English Channel and she sent the following bottle back…

Tell us a bit about yourself and what you do.

I’m a Franco-British poet, translator, reviewer and editor of Sabotage. I’m also in the last year of a PhD in collaboration with Waddesdon Manor, which involves co-curating a small exhibition of prints of the French Revolution (open now). I like being kept busy.

Who or what are your main influences?

Who? As far as poetry goes, the first poem I fell in love with, around the age of eleven was Arthur Rimbaud’s ‘Ma Bohème’, it’s hovered over me since, for better or for worse, as the pinnacle of poetry, it ensnares me like few other poems can and I’ve never managed to translate it in a way that’s done it justice, I don’t think I ever will, it’s become too personal.
What? I am most influenced by my birthplace Brittany, its legends, its landscape, its magic, I’m attached to it by some sort of umbilical cord.

What was the initial idea or manifesto behind Sabotage and has that changed?

I don’t think it’s changed greatly; perhaps it has refined itself. I started out wanting to put the spotlight on publications that don’t often get attention. It started out as a blog but I quickly started adding other reviewers, and then editors, but the spirit is still the same. We concentrate on poetry pamphlets, fiction anthologies (by small/indie publishers) novellas, literary magazines, and live performances. Occasionally we get something that doesn’t fit into the mould, so we have to judge it on a case by case basis. The rules aren’t set in stone, but if it’s getting a lot of attention outside of us, we’re less likely to take it on.

What are the biggest challenges and most rewarding aspects of translation for you?

As far as poetry translation goes, they’re the same as those of writing poetry: deciding when to abandon it is the most difficult part. Learning not to do pyrotechnics is the other: sometimes plain language serves the original best. I always translate the poem literally at first, and I love the strange expressions that can come up during the process. Spending several hours under a poem’s skin is a great way to understand how a poet functions and sometimes, just sometimes, some of that magic rubs off on you and you just have to open a new document and spill some words out. It’s a great source of inspiration, especially if you’re having a dry patch.

How does what you’ve experienced of the French poetry scene differ from the British version?

I have mostly, shamefully, experienced the Anglo-American scene in Paris, which I have to say is particularly vibrant at the moment. It’s had quite the second youth. New presses, magazines and anthologies have been cropping up to capture this special moment. I am a regular at Spoken Word (at Culture Rapide) which is, I think, the centre of the hub. So it’s an exciting time to be in Paris, the community is fairly small but constantly rejuvenated by new arrivals from all over the world.
I am less excited about the French poetry scene at the moment, outside of the slam scene, which is fantastic, I’ve been struggling to find any zines of the kind Britain produces by the bucket load. It also seems harder for young poets to make it. That being said, I am renting a flat from the youngest Oulipo member and his bookshelves tell me the stories the internet is quiet about; that there is a very active underground scene. The main difference, I feel, is that you have to be in the know to be able to experience it, whereas the British scene is less hermetic. These are gross generalisations of course.

What frustrates you most about poetry, and what do you think the medium is best placed to achieve?

I get more frustrated about issues that surround poetry than poetry itself, and I have trouble thinking about poetry in terms of achievements… I often think of poetry as carnivalesque in the Bakhtinian sense: a second world that’s concrete, warm, that embraces all of the people but that is also full of mischief, imagination and misrule. If it gains a definition it will always turn it on its head.

Given ultimate power, what would you change to provide a more receptive environment to poetry?

I think the key is in raising children to love poetry. I’ve tutored some students through their English GCSEs and by then they’ve already been scarred. They think poetry is boring, difficult, not for them; they cannot read it without a clear list of things to find in them, as if it were a map or a wordsearch. So if I had any power it would be to change the syllabus and have poetry-loving English teachers installed in every school.

How have online tools helped or hindered your work?

I am an internet addict, for better or for worse, maybe I’d write better poetry without the distractions but I owe so much to online communities and, of course, Sabotage would not exist without the internet.

Whose work are you currently enjoying, and why?

I am still praising Roberto Bolaño weeks after I critiqued him for Horizon Review. His poetry is really quite bonkers, dangerous and oddly moving. I think the fact that it is translated makes it taste wonderfully fresh.

Finally, what future projects have you got planned?

Well, Sabotage is launching its inaugural Saboteur Awards this month, celebrating literary magazines, be they online or hard copies. I would love to find some sort of money for Sabotage to either put into the awards and/or to pay the reviewers, so that’s something I’d like to plot. Poetry-wise, I have a pamphlet of poetry, Low-Tide Lottery, coming out with Salt later this year, so that’s exciting. And finally I have to finish my PhD sometime soon so I better get cracking.

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For further Claire, seek out Sabotage or www.clairetrevien.co.uk, or follow Sabotage on Twitter